Everything good is of God, (or so the bible says).

'Take kamikazees for example. They all feel like God will reward (!) them for their murders.'

I've never heard of a true christian suicide bomber/kamikaze...

Not meaning to raise arguments. Hope you don't take any of this the wrong way :oP

P.S, Feel free to come to my church when you're next in the U.K :o)

wow thats shocking to hear that since at all of your workshops I constantly hear you saying lines like.

"thank you jesus" and
"prayer in action" and in the ball endurance trying 9 balls
"god help me"

but I accept people for who they are and not their beliefs I have a good friend who's an atheist and a good person.

"If you're an atheist, you have no incentive to be a good person, because you're not afraid of God."

Couldn't it also be argued that if one chooses to be a good person only because they fear God, then they aren't really a good person.

I thought it interesting that Vova talked about swear words one time and and atheism the next. I have always wondered about something regarding those two ideas...maybe someone could answer it for me? -- Why do people use "God" and "Jesus Christ" as swear words? -- I would think that people who believed in God would not want to risk angering that God, by using the name as a swear word. And if someone was an atheist, why would they use a word describing something they didn't believe existed? How could something non-existant add any offensiveness, frustration, or angst to an expression? It would be like me saying, "3-headed monkey" every time I got mad. What do you all think?

Religious morality has always been lagging behind the moral concensus of the society it was embedded in. As an example, consider that according to the Roman Catholic Church masturbation was a mortal sin until about 15 years ago when they had (I assume) the spiritual insight that it isn't so terribly bad after all. It's funny that that insight only came when the rest of society already knew for decades.

In the words of Bertrand Russell: "I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world."

"Couldn't it also be argued that if one chooses to be a good person only because they fear God, then they aren't really a good person."

It certainly can be argued that way Jennifer. At the risk of self-promotion, I wrote a piece on that idea published here: http://monkeyjuggler.blogspirit.com/archive/2005/07/26/heaven-keep-it.html

Hope it's not against the rules to post this.
Cheers for your thoughts Vova, I'm enjoying your writing and the discussions they geneerate.
Have fun.

How did someone's make believe friend from thousands of years ago turn out to be so popular amongst the crowd.

There are only 2 reasons why someone would devote so much of their life to God and church.

1. They fear death and can't accept that it will eventually take them and ones they love forever.

2. They were brought up going to church all the time and are scared what their family and friends will think if they stop going.

The Churches reel you in through fear and keep you attending through fear.

Richmond: I'm afraid it's not that simple. The sorry state of affairs is that most people really honestly believe all that stuff simply because they've been indoctrinated their whole lives. And because they believe they'll indoctrinate their children, and so on.

What a thoughtful post. One can easily be an atheist and still be a moral person. Morality is a man made idea anyway. Very often I see people who call themselves moral who say they believe in God who seem to me to be selfish and vile. Don't you agree?
The scary thought though is that if there is no God, and these crazy moralities like kamakazis, suicide bombers, cultic abusers, and other whacked out religious beliefs are just man made moralities, then where does that leave us? Whose to say whose morality is better than another? They are all on equal footing. If there is no God, as long as we don't hurt anybody, we can be as sick and twisted as we want with no thought of evil or good...because in the end, it's all just made up anyway.

I'd like to think of you Vova as one of the most beautiful expressions of creativity alive today...even if you couldn't juggle. Because you are a creation of God. You are good because God made you. Your gifts are a reflection of beauty and how hard work and focus can become amazing reflections of the divine. But that's just me.

If only we could all regard one another the same way because of God. That would make God worth believing in.

I wouldn't call Kamikazes murderers. In my mind they were warriors defending their land, by attacking military targets, while the americans answered by bombing two cities (just in case one wasn't enough). The act of commiting suicide isn't seen as something completely bad japanese as it is in western culture. Samurais carried knifes with them for commiting seppuku (ritual suicide) instead of being captured, a process make them lose their pride, in their mind.

Also many of the moral rules in society are more based on the fact that they help to create a more stable society than being reliogislous. Things just don't work so great when people run and kill and so steal.

So, that's I've got to say about that. Maybe not to relevant, but who cares.

An other thing to think about is that the Bible has caused (although this isn't promoted in it)more murders than "Mein Kampf" (If you don't believe this, then take a look at what has happened in Northern Ireland, and ofcourse we cannot forget the endless middle east conflict). Religions can probably cause much more harm than good, even though they all seem so great and perfect in the beginning.

What a useless argument. You either believe or you don't.

First off, God is real. How could the world be here if there was not God. Think about it. What do you think will happen when you die? You'll just disappear. No. You will go to Heaven, Hell of the Pergatory. This is why it is important the follow God because I sure don't want to end up in hell. Heaven is a marvelous place, and Hell is a firey pit. Which will you choose?

Religion is mental illness. Its delusion. Just because lots of other people share your delusion, doesnt make it any less delusional.

Religions, especially christianity cant claim moral superiority over anyone.

This is god's advice on what you should do to a friend or family member who suggests you believe in another deity:

"...you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God..."

Oh yeah, moral high ground right there. The old testament also says its ok to sell your daughter into slavery, stone someone to death for working on the sabbath, etc.

Christians claim the new testament fixes all the problems in the old testament. Apparently god lied the first time? Its basically some kind of sadomasochistic idea. The idea of the new testament is that god had himself incarnated as a man, so he could be hideously tortured and "die" to forgive our sins. If god wanted to forgive our sins... Why not just forgive them? Who is god trying to impress? Presumably himself since he's judge and jury, as well as execution victim.

No christian kamakazes? Many christians have shot and killed abortion doctors, claiming their actions were supported by scripture. And thats ignoring the crusades and the spanish inquisition.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you'd have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg, Physicist and Nobel Lauriate

As Schani has mentioned Betrand Russell, I might as well recommend a book called "Why I Am Not A Christian" by the man himself. It is one of the best essays I have ever read, while also one of the most logical and common-sense based essays as well.

I myself am an athiest, and even a secularist. I believe that religeon hurts both society and the individual. Primarily because it causes Bias remarks, such as "If you don't believe in a God (Primarily the Christian God) you are either going to hell, or a bad person (typically both though).

I have been to both a Protestant and Catholic school. I am used to people completely disagreeing with my basis of morality, and my so called "arrogance" for my athiesm. I've also lived in 5 different countries and I've come to the conclusion that America is the most deluded, fear-driven, hateful, bias, and intollerant first world nation. It is behind the times in many areas, although it claims to be ahead. The point I'm getting to is that these predujices are an American formation, and you might consider, when you're older and have a guaranteed stable income, move out of the states and join reality again.

I hear what you are saying Adam, but need some examples--what country are you in? Which others would you suggest? Vova seems hell-bent on getting hit with the Born Again, Family Values Christian Right backlash--hope it works out OK for him!

I applaud you for having the courage to state your beliefs when it's very easy in todays world to become a target because of them. I myself an am atheist but will join my friends at their church every once and a while just to get a better idea of who they are too. The thing is, many christians believe what they want- as the ONLY truth, and all they accept, mix up religion and state (you can't argue that it doesn't happen) and conservatism and religion go hand in hand. It's not just atheists they give a bad name to, but anyone who thinks differently. Quoting another poster:

"If there is no God, as long as we don't hurt anybody, we can be as sick and twisted as we want with no thought of evil or good...because in the end, it's all just made up anyway."

What? That is the opposite of what Vova was saying. Just because there atheists do not believe in an afterlife doesn't mean that they are sick and demented. I would actually argue that there were more "evil" people inside of the church because they use religion as a back up plan- "I may rape my step daughter, but I can ask Jesus for forgiveness and as long as I mean it I'll still go to heaven." It's a twisted lazy cycle.

I also think it's ignorant, Matt, to believe that just because you exist like all the other creatures on this planet that this higher power is your christian god- equipt with heaven and hell.

Buh. Anyways, thanks for giving me something to think about for the next few days. I hate being labeled as a bad person because I don't go to church and follow somebody ELSES rules and beliefs when if I did I know I would just by lying my entire life- far worse then having my own set of morals of respecting everyone around me and living as good of a life as possible.

Religion is a mental illness. Ghandi, Hitler, Mother Theresa, MLK, Bill Clinton, Newton, Einstien, Jefferson, Franklin, Bin Ladin, Mandela, Tutu, Bono, Churchhill, Nobel, Anne Rice...yes all certifiably insane...

Let's list some crazy atheists now. Nope can't think of any, other than Lenin, Stalin and Ho Chi Min. A world filled with evil, crazy theists and Mostly sane and rational atheists.

BTW, Caitlin, all I suggested is that if there is no God then morality has no real basis other than in the minds of men. All religions come from the mind of humans if there is no God...so whose to say what is moral and what is not? Therefore being good or evil(as long as we don't hurt anyone, because that would break the social contract)is meaningless if there is no God. True?

In any case...If God doesnt set the standard for evil and good, the other option is quite scary to me. Who sets it? Me? You? Culture? My dog? The serial killer? Whoever is in charge at the moment? Whoever has the loudest voice? The UN?

God forbid.

EvilGood. Its all very confusing I think. But I do like juggling. That seems good to me.

What if God is juggling too? All existance flies up and down in perfect synchronicity. But like juggling, if you take a snap shot of a moment in a pattern, it can look like chaos. But taking the pattern as a whole, it is aligned and beautiful.

What if God is catching pins from 6 billion jugglers at once? Only a God could do that. But I like juggling because, maybe in some small way, it looks like God. Jugglers in their form look something like God.

Jesus christ, they're CLUBS not PINS you godslobbering pinhead!

'No christian kamakazes? Many christians have shot and killed abortion doctors, claiming their actions were supported by scripture. And thats ignoring the crusades and the spanish inquisition.'

Then they're obviously not true christians. Although thats not to say that christians are good all the time. Anyway, this does seem a rather pointless argument. Everyone obviously has very strong views about it.

ATHEISM ROCKS!!

Godslobbering Pinhead...
In the year I was in the Circus we called them Clubs...I have often heard them called pins...I googled it and found several that do.

But isn't it interesting how we easily become fanatics when our religion is marred with a term we disagree with. Pins...clubs and then we call names and insults. I guess we all have a religion of some sort don't we. Perhaps it's just as easy, if you can insult a man's faith, to insult my race. I'm 1/4 hispanic. You could call me a godslobbering wetback pinhead. I'm a Texan by birth. You could have called me an ignorant red-neck godslobbering pinhead. I'm not gay, so you could call me a godslobbering wetback breeder pinhead. I mean I did use the "wrong" word. Right?

It's easy to criticize others as dangerous religious fanatics, but harder not to be one. Maybe it's not religion. Maybe it's just us.

Athiest or theist, it's just plain hard to be a moral person, don't you agree?

Great post Vova - it is sparking lots of spirited discussion.

Humans create stories. It is how we deal with our universe and make sense of the world. These stories take many forms from histories, and personal narratives, to identities, religions, and science. The most obvious stories take the form of fictions, while the most subtle form the basic foundations of our realities. They are metaphors and models we create in order to function in a coherent way with the overwhelming barrage of data that is our environment.

Conciousness is in itself creative - and stories are what we use, be they stories of atheistic scientism or fundamentalist religion, to apply meaning and order to our experience.

Evil? Perhaps you would cite the Holocaust and Hitler as an example - is this some kind of evil incarnate? What about United States history and the murder, abuse, rape, and bondage of hundreds of thousands of Africans that formed the foundation of our capitalist economy? Were the individuals that perpetrated this "evil?" Some may have been your grandparents or great-grandparents. How about those that participated in the wanton slaughter and dislocation of the Native Americans? None of these people felt they were "evil" - they told stories that justified their actions and created a moral framework that supported their views. All sides of the current conlicts in the world today have stories that provide a framework within which they can act deliberately even when those acts are violent and brutal. It is very convenient for us to use ideas like "evil" to wield war or vent our rage - like the concept of "God," it is a powerful storytelling tool, but beyond that...

Personally, I act as a liberal, humanist, relativistic pacifist - but I have little doubt that the world around me could change in such a way that I could come up with some very compelling arguments for conservative, religious, fundamentalist, violent behavior. I am lucky to live a relatively comfortable and sheltered life that allows me to cling to my happy little chaotic universe.

It is not "delusion" but it is not "truth." It is just the fundamental state of human existence - we can't know reality, so we make it up as we go along.

That's my story anyway. =)

For those who are atheists who have posted here...

Would you say that no one anywhere has spiritual experiences that go beyond the natural world? Have you never experienced anything spiritual? Would you say we have no soul, no spirit? In the world today, atheists are very rare(less than 1 tenth of 1 percent in the US.) Just wondering.

I am in the same boat that your in Vova

DAN, I am currently living the in the United States. If you'd like to hear more about my views/opinions and how i've come to them you're welcome to instant message me on AIM, screen name: Shatteredrelick

Sacrednarrative, although you can list many intelligent people who have believed in a God, and you just so happened to list a few "evil" people who haven't believed in a God, doesn't mean athiesm is bad nor does it mean without a God there is no basis for morality. The basis of morality simply comes through the actions of us humans, and even living beings in the past. We observe both our ancestors and our contemporaries and find out how they either reached chaos or victory, and what the prices were to both of these. God, to me anyways, is simply just a figure head, like Big Brother in the book "1984", which keeps us inline, and gives certain members of society a way of swaying our opinions without us truly looking over those changes we have made. If the bible said that we must kill off the sinners in the world to make a perfect world, I believe people would follow it. Not because it makes logical sense, but rather because they feel a higher power knows best, and they must obey it. If we forget our own minds and our own logic we simply won't improve as a species. We have minds because we have evolved in such a way that we are fully dependant on them to survive. Once we let go of our minds we are leaving ourselves open for attack, rather internally than externally in the case of religeon. I have much much more to say on this part of the topic itself, but to avoid you from losing interest sacred narrative, I will proceed to my second point.

I, and i'm sure many of the people in this blog, including Vova, will firmly say that no one ever has "spiritual experiances". The way I see "spiritual experiances" is that they are nothing but comforting emotions tied with your physical enviroment which are falsely directed towards a certain spiritual figurehead. Otherwise, a human convinces him or herself so much that this figurehead exists, that the mind cannot accept that it does not exsist (even if it does) to the point where this person will have a mild hillusination or more likely misconceieve something natural as something supernatural. Another possibility is that one believes in a God because he or she prayed and someone in their family God better from possibly an illness. Explain to me this: Why do so many other people who pray die of these illnesses, why do so many innocent children starve each day, why is there always war? After reviewing this question several times you can easily come to a logical conclusion that the person healed by fortunate chance, rather than a "spiritual experiance".

If you are still not convinced you as well can Contact me via AIM: SN: Shatteredrelick

P.S: Betrand Russell was a strong athiest, and he recieved a nobel peace prize.

Dear Vova,
I thought you and Olga did great on the morning show. Thanks for giving jugglers around the world a good name. I am suprised at all the talk that has come from my original post. I appreciate you taking the time to listen to that audio message if you did. Here is another one I found interesting http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page It is the Atheist debate .
-Judah

It's like war. In text form. Is war healthy?

Fearing God is not like really fearing...

It's like...you should know everything that you do is seen by God...and since God is God, he can discipline you or give you reward in what you do...so its really not fearing...

its simply knowing that God exists and He knows whats best for us...

99.5% agree with what Adam said (.5% I disagree with is spelling related).

I find it quite amusing how much some people seem to need a God figure in their life. My guess is that part of the reason why religion has been so succesful is because most people seem to find piece of mind in having a "higher power" lead them through their lives and a chance of going to heaven after they are die, as opposed to simply seizing to exist. It absolutely blows my mind how people look past all reason and logic in order to have that piece of mind.

Vova and Adam,
As a person of faith, I can honestly tell you that being a theist does not mean abandoning your reason and logic for the sake of piece of mind. The people I mentioned above were reasonable and logical people. In fact, being a person of faith comes from many different areas of experience including logic and reason.

Many believe that they have had an actual spiritual experience that has led them to a belief in God. Others have had people they love have their lives changed by God. Those are significant events that cannot easily disregarded. Being thoughtful is obviously not reserved for the non-believer alone. Adam speaks of evolution and the progress of mankind. Yet most of the great leaps of progress of man in this age have been advanced by people of faith, not atheists. Granted people of faith have done horrible things as well, but this great country of opportunity and freedom was founded by people of faith who believed that we have the God given right to live free and in peace. Over the millions of years, evolution has naturally selected faith and belief in a God, therefore it has benefitted mankind in some way I would think.
Also, I think Adam quite easily disregards the experiences of 5.7 billion people. That's quite a faithfilled statement to say, "All 5.7 billion theists in the world are just hallucinating and we atheists are the only ones who have got it right." You must have quite alot of faith to believe that only you are right and the rest of human history has been wrong. Aristotle, Plato, Jesus, every native American Tribe, in fact every human culture since the dawn of time has been wrong. Since the statement that there are no spiritual experiences is fundamentally unprovable, then it is a statement of faith to say they aew all wrong...you have more faith than I do.
Imagine you are watching 1000 people walk into a room. Every person who walks out says there is a mighty tiger in the room or there is an incredibly beautiful lady in the room. Every so often, 1 person in 1000 walks into the room and comes out saying the she or he saw nothing. In fact the most logical conclusion about what you are witnessing is that they are all right. The most resonable response is not that there is nothing in the room, but that there is something in the room, though that 1 person in 1000 may not have seen it. Perhaps it is that 1 person in 1000 that is deluded not the other 999. That would certainly be the most logical conclusion.
I deeply respect your very thoughtful stance on atheism. The important thing is that you are exploring what you believe, so many people don't at all. This is what leads to bigotry and hate and evil, from atheists and theists alike. I do not believe that your stance is the result of delusion or hallucination. I simply believe that you have walked into the room, and you saw nothing. I am saddened that you would think that mine is not the result of thoughtful reasoning and personal experience. But I cannot change what you think. I only hope that you can respect those of us who think deeply about these things and have come to a different conclusion without think that we are all unthinking, delusional, or deceived. You must admit that, logically, the proof of legitimate spirtual experiences that transcend this reality seem to have afflicted the vast majority of humans who have ever lived, making it at least possible that these experiences are legitimate.

If you are interested you are welcome to hear some of my thoughts on God. I think you will at the least find them reasoned and, if nothing else, entertaining.

I have enjoyed this conversation. Even more, I am excited for what you, Vova, are doing to make this world a more beautiful place...If there was a God, I think He would be proud of you and fell that your hard work and passion is making this world a little more like heaven and a little less like hell. Something I wish I did more.
Here's me talking too much. :)

http://www.pulpitrock.com/weekly/audio/players/tribe.htm

Here's an interesting article about one of the most famous atheists in this century.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/atheist_believes_in_god.htm

What I want to know is why is it that certain people of religious nature find it so hard to deal with the fact that many other people pertain to different forms of spirituality? It's like they have no faith in others being able to make the right (regardless on the differing viewpoints on what's right) decisions in their life.It's very short- sighted and overly paternalistic (reminds me of your smoking blog).

I am also an atheist, but I also know that I am spiritual as well as moral. Atheism doesn't seem to constrain these two parts of me. Everyone seems to be arguing whether or not religion and morality are the same thing. Many religious people seem to believe it is, while most atheists don't. If they are the same why is it that people of many religious and spiritual backgrounds end up at similar moral codes? From my experience neither depend on one another.

By the way Vova it should be "...as opposed to simply CEASING to exist." and "...and logic in order to have that STATE of mind."

Oh one last thing...You may enjoy this conversation with people who think differently about faith than the average. It is called the "emerging church." They welcome all people of all backgrounds for conversation.

http://www.theooze.com/forums/index.cfm

Sacrednarrative,

The element you left out of your "1000" people narrative is that all 1000 people were told there is a tiger in the room. Their lives were filled with stories of the tiger, their friends and family talked of experiences with the tiger, people in positions of power and priveledge preached that they must fear and respect the tiger. They were in fact told that if they did not see the tiger when they went in the room it was because they were not looking hard enough and how sad that would be.

Given this situation, it seems to me that those that look carefully but do not see the tiger in the room and admit it when they leave exhibit a great strength of mind and character. While those that saw nothing, or saw perhaps a flash of orange and black assume a tiger without having any real evidence - but they risk nothing because they are supported by hundreds of others just like them. They then pass the story on to as many people as they can because the more people that believe it the more true it must be.

Sacrednarrative, although you do make a seemingly good logical argument about the tiger, the analogy itself is flawed.

When people go into the room, they all experiance something different, from different versions of belief, all telling them to do different things, some considered evil in this modern day, and mostly of conflicting moral values. It is therefore illogical for me to believe that if there is a God that he would "tell" different people to do such contrasting things. For example, extremist radical muslims may find to be told to kill others, to clense the earth. Some bhudist monks may find it to be told that they must abandon all of their friends for the rest of their life (which is extremely contrary to Christian belief). While also you'll get christians that feel they are being told to "spread the good news" to those in the 3rd world, and help them economically. When some go in the room they see a leopard, when some go in the room they see an ostritch, when some go in the room they do infact see the tiger, and yes, when I go in the room I see nothing.

It is not me defying all human nature since "the dawn of time" (which is an incorrect statement in itself as humans have only exsisted for a fraction of a fraction of the time of the earth itself, which is still small compared to the undetermined time the universe has exsisted), it is merely me using rationalization on what other people say they have seen to conduct that many people are in fact wrong, and therefore I am to conclude that it is best either not to make up my mind, or declare there is nothing at all(agnostisism or athiesm, I choose athiesm simply because of reasons i've already listed in other posts). Also it must be mentioned that although 5.7 billion people have claimed to have spiritual experiances, many of those experiances can easily be based off of ignorance. We'll take the Native Americans for example; they believed they saw spirits when they saw their reflection, a conclusion made of an unknown. Hindus, as well as Romans and Greeks, believed in many Gods for many different areas of life which were unexplainable. The Christian God today is simply another irrational conclusion to justify the unknown of death and conciousness.

Your argument that evolution has caused us to believe in a God is partly flawed. Evolution has brought us to adapt to our enviroment, and by that i mean we learned how the world works. Through this logical frame of mind we're able to figure out how to create and utilize tools, figure out how farming works, ect. ect. Unfortunately, the way the universe works, or in the case of Native Americans, how our reflection appears, is a much more difficult question to answer, and requires many steps, which as imperfect individuals we jumped to conclusions far too quickly. Some of the questions are obviously impossible to answer, such as if something survives after death (evidence we have proves no, but as the mind cannot contemplate not exsisting religeon is also created). Therefore evolution has infact caused us to believe in a God, but not because it betters us as a society, but rather because of our flaws we jumped to conclusion to reveal truth, and as false information passes as quick as truth, it is impossible to rid of this flaw we have made in our society. Religeon, as I am depicting it, is therefore like a disease, that's why 5.7 billion people believe in it, and that's why I do not.

Finally, your argument that people of religeon cause great improvements to society, is not entirely correct. I will first assess that society as a whole with religeon causes resistance to progress. Religeon causes obvious tension in the world, which obviously causes many human beings not to cooperate, or used to anyways. The reason it doesn't today is because of the new structure of society due to influences of a very famous Athiest Karl Marx. Karl Marx believed that the world, with religeon, caused people to stay in their place in society, because they believed that the next life will be better, so they will live humbly as it is. Karl Marx reffered to religeon as "The opium of the masses" for the obvious reason which i just stated. Karl Marx pushed the proletariate to over throw aristocrat so he would no longer be opressed. Karl Marx, through rationality, was able to benefit the everyday man across most of Europe. He even developed socialism, which in theory is the most kind form of government for society as a whole, although due to human nature, can cause corruption and chaos if put under the wrong hands. Marx's influences "woke up" the entire world, including most christians, and definitely the Catholic church to think more towards social justice. Furthermore the rationalists, many of them athiests, brought progress in scientific and social theory which was, at the time, thought heretical to Church teaching. I will admit that there are quite a few of religeous people who brought progress, but that's inevidable if the majority of the world is religeous, plus most of these people worked under simple logic and human conscience and tied religeon in with it.

I hope this rather long passage has dawned light on my own, and many athiests ardent reasoning towards our own "belief".

That last post I must credit both Betrand Russell and Karl Marx for some of my arguments. Although most are my own, they are both large influences on my theology.

"By the way Vova it should be "...as opposed to simply CEASING to exist.""

I stand corrected.

Sacrednarrative, you used the wide popularity of religion as argument for it. Your "tiger in the room" analogy has already been corrected. I would also like to add that there's strong correlation between what people are told to see in the room and what they report seeing. What they see is more of an idicator of what they were told to see, than an indicator of what's actually in the room. When people walk into a room and 99% of them report they saw what they are pressured into seeing (all different things for different people), and then you walk in to the room and don't see anything, it's quite reasonable to assume there's nothing in the room.

The other thing I would like to say to summarize some of the things Adam and Carl have said is that throughout the course of human history unexplained natural occurances have been attributed to something supernatural/spiritual. Then as humans learnt more about their environment, those supernatural/spiritual explanations were replaced by natural explanations. Never once has a natural explanation been replaced by a supernatural one.

To begin with, i appreciate all of your thoughtful comments. It is good to share these ideas. Basically, what I'm reading from all of you is this. Spiritual experiences are a result of indoctrination and peer pressure. Religion is a form of mass agreement towards ideas that are simply not true. No one has ever had a spiritual experience.

Here's my trouble. Couldn't all of this be said for a lack of spiritual experience as well. If it is possible to believe that there is something there that is not there, then it is equally possible to believe that there is nothing when in fact there is actually something. The argument works both ways. One can be indoctrinated into any belief. Therefore, you can use the argument equally to prove the existance of supernatual spiritual experience and the lack thereof as well. I did not use the argument as support for religion. I said it is perfectly logical and reasonable to conclude that people do have legitimate spsirutal experiences. Is it possible that every religious person in the world who has ever lived and died has simply been deluded? Sure. Is it reasonable and rational believe that spiritual experiences are real and legitimate? Sure. The question that one must answer for themselves is which is most likely and which is most true. You have concluded in favor of atheism, but I would hope you would respect a rational person's conclusion for theism. That is all I was arguing for. If you read several of the posts early on, they referred to theists as irrational. (Though many are; I'll grant that without reservation.) Many of us Theists are not deluded nor irrational, we simply have come to a different conclusion based on our experiences...a rational and thoughtful conclusion.

Carl, I deeply appreciate your thoughts and both of your posts. As a professional storyteller and an actor, your very reason concepts of personal narrative and our performative instincts have the ring of truth to me. Though others have taken what I wrote as a argument for religion, in fact I only meant them to be an apologetic for those of us who are reasoned in our decision for theism. Often we theists are maligned because, as is the case with the majortity of humanity, most of us are irrational and gullible. That doesn't mean, however, that theism is irrational. I only meant to say that concluded that there is something in the room is a rational and logical conclusion. as I mentioned in my analogy, it is equally rational to conclude that the one who sees nothing actually saw nothing.

Vova, I do not believe that there are any supernatural events. I believe that spiritual experiences are perfectly natural and that God Himself is perfectly natural. I don't need miracles to prove my belief in God. God acting through natural means is beautiful and wonderful to me. The fact that you are great at juggling because of the effort you put into it does not make it less beautiful than if you had been magically born with the gift. In fact it makes it all the more wonderful to me.

Again, Vova, I'm not arguing for religion. I am defending the fact that being religious is as rational and reasonable as being an atheist.

One question... is it possible that one can be pressured into not seeing anything?

I don't mean to be rude sacrednarrative, but you used absolute bogus logic proving theism. There is not an equal chance of any spiritual event happening simply because athiesm has displayed rational evidence while religeon is yet to have any evidence other than faith that has not been challenged and dismissed by athiests. I'm still yet to see Christian evidence break up proofs of Athiest evidence.

You're still yet to show some kind of rational argument for religeon or a spiritual experiance. So far up to my knoledge i've logically dismissed everything you've said.

My intent was to argue that religeon is irrational, and unreasonable.

"God" through natural events means things are spiritual? Unless I've been mistaken you've just said that events that could happen without God are now part of God. That doesn't make sense to me, and seems highly irrational.

My intent is not to be cruel to you in any way, because you seem a very nice person indeed, but please display reasoning behind your evidence.

Can one be pressured into not seeing anything? One can be suppressed of emotions in an experiance that might be interpreted as a spiritual experiance. One can definitely be pressured into using irrationality to disprove God, and have no basis for his theory, which can be of the direct result of some kind of family or peer pressure towards athiesm.

The way personal truth works is all counter truth has to be either clouded or erased. This can be done through either logic (erased), or external pressure or forces (clouded).

So in short, yes is the answer to your question.

There is nothing that happens without God. Therefore all thing of God are perfectly natural. Or so I think.

Adam, what proof do you have that there is no God?

Sacrednarrative, the logic which you have just used is called "circular logic". It means that in order to justify your point you have already acted on the assumption that it is true. This in turn renders it to be an irrational statement.

as the idea of God is something that cannot actually be proven, and does not actually exsist in this physical reality it is impossible to disprove of him/her/it. The evidence for a God though, as it stands, can be disproved, or made thought less logical than the idea of there not being a God. The only disproof I really have is the fact that the universe works completely by casuality, and the universe itself stands just as high of a chance to be an eternal being just as God to be an eternal being. If i had merely this evidence alone, it would be a very difficult choice, but with further evidence given of proof of a God, and all of that being disproved, and the fact that God isn't actually needed in any events, I am yet to have a genuine reason to believe in him.

In short, it's not the fact that I am an athiest because i can prove there is no God, but rather because I have no reason to believe there is one.

Adam,
You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God... only that you don't know of any. Also since you cannot know the experiences of another, you cannot prove that they do not have reasonable evidence for God. Yet above you said that you have "atheist evidence" that no Christian can refute. What did you mean by this?

Really Adam, I see that you are passionate about your belief. You certainly don't seem to be a person who is bigotted against theists, just someone who does not believe. I am more interested in how you came to be where you are...that is a story worth reading.

KKTK,
I have no need to justify my point and therefore no need to worry about an assumption. If you are referring to my understanding of the natural world, then yes there is a given assumption there that I have no need to prove, because my point is simply what I believe. I have no real interest in proving what I believe...because I already believe it.

I don't need to prove the supernatural to prove God exists. So that argument against theism falls flat for me. I was only stating my understanding of creation. I have no interest in debating that fine point of theism with someone who is not a theist. But if I were trying to prove that, you are right it would be circular. But I'm not. It's just what I believe.

Truly finally,
I can no more prove to you that God is real than I can prove to you that I love my family. If you are convinced I don't love my family, no matter what I say or do will be dismissed by you as invalid. It is your presuppositions that are the problem, not whether or not God exists.
I can no more prove to you that God is real than you can prove that the universe is all that exists. Your demand of proof precludes acknowledgement of many types of evidence...because your presuppositions don't allow it.

I am much more interested in how you came to this place in your journey. That to me is a sacred narrative.

Briefly, I cannot imagine how a believer in God can see an innocent child with its face blown off (as we now see nightly on the news) and continue to hang onto their blind faith. What kind of sick bastard would cause that to occur? What kind of spineless wimp would allow it to go on? You pray to this all-knowing, all-powerful God?
Why? Did he create the Universe and then check out? Where was he standing when he did that? It the Universe Alabama to you?

I was a little harsh in my last comment, but what I was attempting to communicate is that i've heard so many arguments for religeon, having religeous education for 6 years and living amongst some incredibly bright Christians. Therefore, although I'm sure I haven't heard every single last argument, I'm not only confident in my position as an athiest, but in my beliefs in a secular world, without religeon.

This one blog is getting rather filled, but I'll give you one last argument (well, maybe the last) on your family thing.

I love my family too, dearly, although I sometimes dissapoint them, I really do. Yet I don't believe in a God. I believe that love comes from your own heart, it's your own stuff. It's no one elses: it's not your family's, it's not your friend's, it's not God's (in my view of course). I will do what I can for my family during this life, and it will come from my own motivations, and my own generated love.

That was about as metaphysical as I get.

I'm a little tired to reply to your other arguments. My journey? i suppose that's another one of those abstract things. If you want to know my life experiances, i'll be glad to share, just maybe not on this blog.

The statement I am questioning is "There is nothing that happens without God. Therefore all thing of God are perfectly natural.".

Sacrednarrative I have absolutely no problem with your belief system, I have many friends of many faiths and I fully accept tham for that. I also know that it is impossible for either of us to prove the existence(or lack there of) of a god. But my problem lies in the REASONING behind your choice. Don't get me wrong I respect it and I am definitely not going to argue against theism, I just feel as though that particular argument lacks logical structure. I think the amount of passion you have in your faith is quite admirable.

Adam wrote " "God" through natural events means things are spiritual? Unless I've been mistaken you've just said that events that could happen without God are now part of God. That doesn't make sense to me, and seems highly irrational." I am just saying that yor new explanation doesn't make sense to me either.

I also believe that you wrote to Vova "I am defending the fact that being religious is as rational and reasonable as being an atheist." I agree with that statement, because both options seem to be two sides on the same coin. However I didn't really see much rationality in the particular statement in question. I hope you didn't take offense to it, I was just trying to point out your logical flaw.
I am afraid that this blog is too overloaded and too long for me to thoroughly answer your other comments, so you're just going to have to be satisfied with what I just wrote.

Vova....note to self...never post anything religious again.

Maybe we can make thousands of posts and this blog will get on the news or something. I guess it already has been publicitized, but not for something unjuggling related!

I think that anyone can think what he/she chooses. I don't think others should push religion on others. If Vova or another individual does not believe in a higher being leave it to that. I don't think any less of people without a religion. My best friends are atheists, but they're not bad people at all.

Sorry for not reading all the 50 comments, but I don't think anyone has posted this yet:

sacrednarrative: "what proof do you have that there is no God?"

What proof do you have that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster?

-> http://www.venganza.org/

(there is of course no proof for either of the two)

Romanzo that website is absolutely briliant, thanks for spreading the "Good news" : ).

I love the hate mail.

Well, you can actually go tediously through the various aspects of the christian god (all-good, omniprescence, omnipotence, the creator aspect etc etc) and there are various arguments for each point to prove that god doesn't have these qualities... That said, there's no point arguing them to a theist... they'll either repeat what you said, just negating every argument and calling it an argument "for", or they'll ignore you and spout "it's not about proof, it's about belief, and I know he's real"

Faith is undoubtedly a good thing, I would much rather be able to believe that I go and sit in some comfy clouds if I was a good boy all my life, but my mindset is such that that makes no sense to me.. and as is shown here at least, to quite a few other people..
No one is a worse person because of lack of faith, that's ridiculous. Even the idea of a worse person is purely subjective... I'm not even sure why a lot of people here are arguing about morality. I think it's pretty safe to assume that people here know their right from wrong...
However, there are some people arguing about the church lol, of course Bertrand Russell was correct in the quotation near the top as being the principal enemy of forward thinking (or similar)...
It's a good job we're starting to ignore him though, condoms for the win eh?
yeah, more to the point *insert repeated cliché praise to vova et al* well played at the wjf an all that fella, but stick to immaturity, we can all get a little deep sometimes, but its more fun at the shallow end :D

Sacrednarrative threw around some numbers earlier (5.7 theists, only 1 tenth of 1 percent atheists)that should be clarified just for the record:

Generally accepted estimates puts the number of non-theists (those that do not beleive in a god) at over 25% of the world population. This includes Buddhists~6%, Traditional Chinese religions (Taoism, Confucianism)~6%, and non-religious persons (including humanists, secularists, agnostics, and atheists)~15%. Although the estimated number of self-proclaimed atheists is only around 2-3% - this is only a fraction of those that are non-theistic.

KKTK,

I wasn't going to post anymore here. You are welcome to listen to some of my stuff online to hear a little more about my journey.
But you asked a straight forward question. I'm a subsistance theist. I don't believe that anything happens without the sustaining power of God. All creation is literally sustained and held together by the power of God's voice. "In the beginning, God said, "Let there be light." The most up to date string theory as postulated toward the TOE, indicates that the structure of the micro and macro universe can be linked by phenomena that are much like sound and light. Particles behave, at the smallest level, like waves and much like photons. (Sound and light) At the grandest scale, physisists and cosmologists are postulating that the entire universe may be made up of dimentional strings vibrating at frequencies much like harmonics. (Cosmology is a hobby.) I find it quite exciting to know that more than 3500 years before the advent of modern molecular and cosmological physics, the first few verses of the Scriptures may have accurately described the essence of the universe. Because of my faith, I do not believe this to be a coincidence. (There is also an interesting coorelation between the order of the poem of creaton in Genesis to the order of theorized macro-evolution...but that's another subject.)
Does that help to explain my belief in the natural/supernatural. I could equally say that everything is natural and that all things are supernatural. Nothing happens unless it is empowered and sustained by God at both the molecular and cosmological scale. Does that seem rational to you?

Finally(didn't I already say that...nevermind. ;) )I have never explained why I am a theist. Therefore you cannot argue with the logic of my reasoning. All I explained was what you have just agreed to, theism and atheism are equally reasonable conclusions. Why I am a theist is a much more complicated tale.

Carl,
Thanks for the correction on the numbers. They can be deceptive and can fluctuate depending on who you ask. For example, more than 1/2 of the world's Buddhists are Mahayanan, only about 1/4 are the more atheistic Therevadan Buddhists(though some of them are still theistic.) Most Buddhists believe in a trancendant being that can be considered a god and many worship Buddha as such. Some Communist regimes (which account for the majority of atheists in the world. The Eastern block countries are still strongly atheist.)are or were official atheistic states and the figures there are difficult to discern as the they are often distorted. Chinese folk religions are varied and involve ancestor worship and animism. They are separate from confucianism and taoism. There are only about 20 million taoists in the world and about 6 million Confucionists. Confucianism is an ethical system that is perfectly compatable with theism and therefore does not exclude theism. It is a complex concept, this theism.

But I'll actually go higher and accept the 1995 survey that finds 14.7% are nonreligious and 3.8% are atheists. The analogy works the same. :)

Vova.

You have very good writing.

Hey Vova,

I see that you have entered the the realm of religion on the internet. I have tried many times to have serious discussions online with people about atheism and religion and it always comes down to people cursing at me and preaching at me (which one is worse, I am not sure). I am an atheist, and not a hidden atheist either. I am the President of a college student group in Virginia called the Freethinkers at James Madison University. I have attempted to show people that atheism is not an evil practice but just a different way of looking at the world and the universe without the hinderance of the supernatural blinders. I feel that atheism is the next step for the world and it is actually catching on more than I ever though it would in my lifetime.

Oh, Christianity is not the only religion. Kamikazees are seen in many other religions though. Even though Cristianity does not have any recorded kamikazees, doesn't mean that their record is clean. So many people have been killed in the name of the Christian god and it still occurs to this day.

Also, when it comes to using god or jesus while swearing, swearing is just a way to vent frustration. Since god has no meaning to atheists, we use it in our swears due to other (christian) people who started using it in the first place. Especially in the bible belt of America, I have heard it so many times that it is hard to remove it from my vocabulary.

Peace
Zac

A good anagram of 'Atheism and Morality' is 'Oatmeal had Ministry'.

Vova, you are thinking just like the rest of the world. You are nothing but a product of the system. The world assumes the attitude that basically, "I'll think whatever I want to, and that makes it right for me, no matter what anyone else thinks."

If you went up to someone you never met and knifed them to death for no apparent reason, you would feel bad about that. If you murdered your mother with a revolver from point-blank-range one night , you would feel bad about that.
What is that "feeling" of sorrow over such things, and where does it come from? The feeling is your own conscience, which happens to be that little part of God that he placed in each of us, so that if we embrace it and admit that we are sinful, and look to him for forgiveness of our sins through Jesus death on the cross, than eternal life is ours.

that makes good sense, but, i make the only question to you:
can you prove in the absense of god?
can you prove that there is no god?
if you are able to, that would be fantastic, if not you might be agnostic and not atheist.

test run

Wow. clever. your time stuff is following Russias time. Anyway, hello there. I only read a few of the comments above, so I don't know if there is anyone that wrote annything similar.
Ok, so I was watching some video clips from my favorite band at their website. Yes, they are christian (STARDIELD in which i strongly agree for you to check out) and yes proudly, so am I. And I saw the title for you and your sisters video when you guys were younger. So in the end I watched a ton, and was in awe. Amazing skill I must say. So I googled you guys and of course this pops up.
Now you may never remember the day that you read this or who the heck REVOLUTION is....but I don't care. I just wanted to let you in on some good news. And please don't get the idea that I'm preaching to you or something, (I hate when people assume that).
God is an amazing Father...He is the best friend I could ever have. When I don't think anyhting could get worse, I turn to Him. And no, I don't know why bad things happen to good people...heck, no one does. But I do know that He cares deeply about all of His children including you and me.

Just remember that your amazing talent was a gift from God. And with that gift..He wants you to do something great.
The anthem of mylife...
"If I'm here all alone
If I'm left behind
If they spit in my face
If they hate my kind

I will rise above
I will live for love
I will answer to the call
For the bond between
For the depth unseen
For my God forsake it all"

I know what you mean about people (especially Christians) saying people who are atheists have no morals and are "bad" people. Now I'm a Catholic, but the thing is, almost all my friends are agnostic/atheists, and they're some of the greatest people I've ever met. I'm not a good person because I want a reward or go to a good place after I die; I'm a good person because I know that if I'm good to others, they'll be nice to me. Even if I didn't believe in God, I still wouldn't act any differently because before I think of doing something "immoral" or "sin" I don't think "Well, if I do that, I'll go to HELL. I want to go to Heaven so I shouldn't do it" but "before I do this, what would *I* think if this happened to me? Would I like it? What would be the circumstances/How would I react if someone did that to me?"
I think Albert Einstein said it best when he said:
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

God is unfalsifiable...You say that maybe he is agnostic and not atheist and I don't agree with that. I feel that if something is impossible to disprove, then that limits its possibility. Its anti-science when you can't test something and that is what religious faith is. I feel if someone does not believe in god, then they are an atheist. Agnostic is just a word to please all sides in my mind.

Background info: I read the Time Magazine article on Vova and Olga, which led me to video's of their juggling on the web, which led me to this web site, which led me to this blog entry. You guys have hit a nerve with me.

I think the issue, if that is the right word, with this discussion is people are attempting to describe that which can not be described. Our ability to perceive and describe reality is heavily influenced and limited by our sensory aparatus. That which we can touch, see, smell, etc, we can understand and describe. "The infinite", "the great spirit", "the creator", "god", or whatever label makes sense to you is beyond our ability to experience it due to our understanding of reality being limited by what we can sense. Mystics spend lifetimes in meditation to break this bound, and the ones who claim they have say they can not describe what they've experienced as language doesn't have anything with which to express it.

My point is any discussion about the existence of "god", the nature of "god", the "intentions" or "desires" of "god" is futile and frustration sets in at the very beginning of the discussion. This is because we all describe things from the perspective of our cultural training, personal experience, etc. It's like the story of the 7 blind men who all touch different parts of an elephant and come to 7 different understandings of what an elephant is like.

To illustrate this point further, if we assume there is a god, and we understand that the three large monotheistic religions of Judiism, Christianity, and Islam all agree there is one god, doesn't it follow that they all believe in the SAME one god. That being the case, how can they be so intolerant of each other?

My point (and if you've read my entry I thank you for taking the time to endure my rambling) is we should we just let this whole god thing go and be good to each other because it does, as Vova stated in his post, make ones life better. Bitter people have bitter encounters. Pleasant people have pleasant encounters. So my advise is to accept your views of religion, spiritually, agnosticism, science, or however you believe the Universe and Life came into existence, and just get on treating people well because you benefit from doing so.

Thank you for allowing me to ramble on this topic. It's rare I have such an opportunity.

Very well said, Vovo -- I appreciate your atheism and your decision to be straight-forward about it at such a young age while in the public eye.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds... Joshua

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds... Joshua

A penny saved is a penny gained... Maurice

A penny saved is a penny gained... Maurice

A penny saved is a penny gained... Maurice

Happiness takes no account of time... Roland

Happiness takes no account of time... Roland

Happiness takes no account of time... Roland

Happiness takes no account of time... Roland

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