That makes sense, I mean I don't always agree with peoples beliefs, yet I respect them.

It actually hasn't anything to do with whether a belief goes against the scientific understanding of the world or not.

To use an example given by Bertrand Russell: There could be a teapot orbiting the sun. This would be completely consisting with what we know about the universe. True, it would be a complete mystery where the teapot came from, or how it came into its orbit, but we could find explanations for that consistent with science (it could have been put there by extraterrestrial pranksters).

Still, very few people would seriously claim to be agnostic regarding the sun-orbiting teapot.

It is also sometimes argued that you are only truly an atheist if you are completely and absolutely sure that there is no god. I don't subscribe to this point of view, either. I'm rather sure that I'm currently wearing a dark blue t-shirt, but my mind could be playing tricks on me, maybe because I didn't sleep enough. Or I might have a yet undetected color blindness. Or it might be an extraterrestrial prank t-shirt that changes color whenever I look away. The point is: Even though you can be very certain of something, you can never be completely and absolutely sure - or you can, but then you might be wrong.

I agree with you on this topic, and find is most annoying when people try to tell an atheist he is agnostic because he cannot prove that god does not exist.

Webster says that an athiest is "one who believes that there is no deity", and an agnostic is: "one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."

The point, as I see it is "belief". An atheist believes there is no god, and a christian believes there is a god. Neither are under any obligation to prove that their belief is correct.

Hmm, I think those who feel atheists must be called agnostics until they can prove god does not exist must themselves be called agnostic until they can prove god does exist.

Only a fool would tell someone else what they believe. If you do not believe in God...then you don't believe in God.

Anyone who tries to tell you what you believe does not respect you.

Also, anyone who implies that people who believe in God are hapless deluded rubes lacks respect for others as well. Some of the most brilliant thinkers in the history of the world were, and are, theists. We must each trust our own and respect another's epistomological conclusions. That is the nature of the postmodern dialectic. Anyone who does not do that, atheist or theist, is primative.

I am constantly amazed when humanists fail to have even the most basic respect for other humans.

I think mystics and saints everywhere have said enough about god and have talked from their own experience, and they can't give you their own experience, but they can show you a way to prove god to yourself and to noone else. It's not imporatant to prove god to someone else for someone whos searching for god, it's important to prove it to oneself based on experience and see if everyone else who has followed the path to God or God-realization has gotten the same results, and if they have then scientifically he would exist.

your Fatslim video is great. I loved watching it. I also make some videos of myself juggling. I am not that good though. I have great fun with it. I was wondering...would you be offended if I tried to make a video like the fatslim video you made. I am a soldier currently in Afghanistan and I thought it would be neat to try and do this there with some of the scenery. what do you think??

Vova,

You are right. You're probally not agnostic. Agnostisism is not a religion, and it's certainly not a belief. Agnosticism is a Journey, a road to a belief, and if you're not searching or looking, and you truelly believe there is no god then you are atheist, but I have an argument for you, and all atheists.

You claim that you don't believe in a god because there is no proof of one's existence, but is there any proof that one does not exist? No. So my conclusion is that you are having "faith" in atheism in much the same way a religious person has faith in their god.

On a side not, why do you suppose people always ask the question, "Well then who made god?" or "If there is god then how did everything get here?". It is obvious that for something to exist it doesn't neccisarely have to be created. Either way there is either a god who has always been here, or there is simply mass and energy that has always been here.

A fellow juggler and thinker,

Austin

To be fair, one can argue that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The very concept of a god is something so intangible that it really is impossible to prove or disprove it's existence. To maintain a firm opinion on such an important question, it requires more faith than actual logic or evidence. Technically speaking any religion or form of atheism is actually agnostic. This is because no one can really know for sure, all you can do is believe.

But honestly though I think the term "agnostic" actually refers to a person who doesn't really care enough about whether or not god exists to form an opinion on the subject.

I think the more important thing than actually believing in something is understanding WHY you believe in it. It's not healthy to put your faith in something simply because it is the traditional way of thinking, or that it may give you a reward, or possibly punish you at the end. The only true way of developing a belief in something is by studying your surroundings, learning how it functions and seeing where it's going. This is why I put my faith in science and this is also why I am an atheist.

Vova,

"Since the creation of the world, God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made".

You don't have to look any farther than yourself to know that God exists. There's no question that you're a great juggler, but your mental and physical capacity is really no greater than the God that gave it to you.

Richard Dawkins, in a clip from his documentary "The Root of All Evil?" recounts Bertrand Russell's wonderful analogy of the magical teapot revolving around the sun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVQoxrrMftA

KTTK,

I agree with most of what you said except: "I think the term "agnostic" actually refers to a person who doesn't really care enough about whether or not god exists to form an opinion on the subject."

While that there are agnostics that don't care at all either way, I know that's not the case for all. I myself am agnostic, and I do care very much. I'm happy with either side, but I have the philosophy that one's faith, or my faith, shouldn't be decided rashly. By rashly I mean at a young age. I'm still young and I have come to realize that I have a whole life a head of me to discover what I truelly believe in. Lifes a journey, an adventure, a quest, and hopefully I'll find what I'm looking for, but if I don't I will still have had fun while doing it.

A fellow juggler and thinker,
Austin

and you'll just let yourself be agnostic forever??? if you had the idea that there might be a God, i don't think that's being agnostic...it's because you know something....

for example, a candle. When you put fire in it, you know that it can give light. But you try to believe that it can't. So are you going to cover the lit candle with something just because you don't want it to give off light?...

Listen, your idealogy, in my opinion, is "To see is to believe"... but with God, "Believe first, and then you'll see."...

So simple.

You're just letting your thoughts gather too much quetions to the extent that you're already against the matter. There are alot of proof that God exists, you just don't want to open your eyes for them.

And i just wanna say that I agree with Eric....

sorry to butt in to respond to a comment rather than a blog post, but:

Believing-->seeing is a phenomenon not exclusive to matters potentially divine, I mean, isn't is a premise of hypnotism? *There's a ginormous pink bird on your shoulder.*
It can create self-fulfulling prophecies and or/ ease oneself into conviction. And if one goes about believing-->seeing, why stop at God? (Though it may make life more complicated when one starts telling people about that huge pink bird...)
If one goes looking for evidence to prove what one hopes to be true (geez I sound faux-British), it's not reall straight-and-narrow research and can lead to seeing things... a documented psychological phenomenon

Then what proof of god is there? I would love to here about it because that would make things so much easier. Not just for me, but for everyone.

Austin

i say im agnostic because i think atheism is a *beleif* in the nonexistence of god. where as i have a very strong suspicion of the nonexistence of god.
also it seems that you get less hassle off religous people if you say your agnostic rather than atheist...

ps. i've seen the hamsters...

What proof of God is there?

Consider yourself. You are made up of a series of complex systems that work together to sustain your life: nervous, skeletal, circulatory, skin, digestive, etc. There is no doubt that you are a very complicated design.
It's no surprise to anybody that complex man-made designs (computers, cars, rockets, etc.) have a designer and a creator. I haven't met you, but I guarantee, you're a lot more complex than a car.
Why is there a question about whether or not you have a designer and a creator?
Just open your eyes, consider all the amazing things in the world, and you'll have your answer... that there is a God more powerful than it all.

Eric, just because you think people are made up of complex systems we really could be quite simple compared to REALLY complicated systems that exist somewhere else in the universe.

Just because something exists doesn't mean there has to be a designer for the thing.

Besides there are some things about human design that are completely stupid. For example, why would you breath down the same hole you eat out of? A smart design would've had 2 different holes for breathing and eating. That way people would never choke to death.

For all the examples of the marvelous design of the human body, you can find plenty of examples of stupid design.

If the designer had any interest in juggling, why weren't we made with a third or fourth arm?

No intellegent design. No god. It's ok to doubt the existence of god. Whether there is one or not has no impact on the world. Except for the lunatics that start wars and oppress people's thoughts in the name of god. We'd all be much better off without religion.

Perry, say what you will about the human body. I don't agree of course, but that's fine. God created whatever REALLY complicated systems that may exist somewhere else in the universe, also.

Perry, said that "Just because something exists doesn't mean there has to be a designer for the thing."

I wish to argue that (to an extent). I'm not about to say the pile of junk in the trash bin was specifically put in place. But I belive anything living, or mechanical, or electric, has a designer behind it. As an example, lets take a watch. Suppose all of the peices happened to jump together and form a watch, and it works just perfectly.

Would you believe me if I told that really happened? I don't think anyone would. If someone said that (and truly believed it) we would put him in the loony bin. BUT, evolution says that all the peices of a single-celled organism (which is considerably more complicated than a watch) happened to jump together, in just the right way to work correctly. Then after a while, a multi-celled organism formed out of that. Then came animals like fish, birds, mammals ect., finally forming man. Even if this took several billion years I have a very difficult time beliving it.

"For all the examples of the marvelous design of the human body, you can find plenty of examples of stupid design."

Do you think you could design a system that works better? I'm certain I could try, but would fail, simply because I don't understand how it all works together. Noone does. We may know quite a bit about it, but we don't know everything.

KTTK, I'm curious, how much "science" do you know outside of evolutionary thinking? Have you ever read a book by a Christian scientist? If not how can you have truly put your faith in sceince, enough to become an athiest? If so you have you are a step ahead of the crowd.

Religion, concepts of God and Science were all created by people. I put my faith in the human creation of science because it answers more questions than the human creation of God.

I believe that there is a chance that some human at some point in time will be able to figure out all the complicated things in the world. Just because I can't explain them and no one living right now does not mean that there won't be some person at some point in history who will be able to figure it all out.

Living with a belief that there will always be a designer, intellect greater than humans is too limiting and arrogant. Just because you can't figure something out and need to attribute it to a higher being doesn't mean some other, smarter person won't be able to figure out the mysteries of life.

I don't believe there is anything supernatural. Everything is knowable. We're just not smart enough yet to figure it all out. Let's just hope religous extremest don't kill us all before we get a chance to do it.

TraxxasJedi wrote:

"I wish to argue that (to an extent). I'm not about to say the pile of junk in the trash bin was specifically put in place. But I belive anything living, or mechanical, or electric, has a designer behind it. As an example, lets take a watch. Suppose all of the peices happened to jump together and form a watch, and it works just perfectly.

Would you believe me if I told that really happened? I don't think anyone would."

If you told me that it happened as frequently as the law of large numbers predicts, then I would be foolish not to believe you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

TraxxasJedi wrote:

"BUT, evolution says that all the peices of a single-celled organism (which is considerably more complicated than a watch) happened to jump together, in just the right way to work correctly."

This is not what the theory of evolution says. According to the theory of evolution, the earliest life forms were much simpler than cells, and cells took time to evolve from simpler forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

Perry said, "Religion, concepts of God and Science were all created by people."

I disagree. The concept of God is not a creation of man. "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private origin, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

Yet, what more can I write if your eyes remain closed to the truth?
It is as the Holy Spirit of God spoke through Isaiah the prophet saying, "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."

Believing in an intellect greater than humans is far from arrogant. Not believing in an intellect greater than humans is arrogant.

Traxxas Jedi wrote "I'm curious, how much "science" do you know outside of evolutionary thinking? Have you ever read a book by a Christian scientist?"

For the first question I am going to say that the theory of evolution is obviously scientific and that to use the term "science outside of evolutionary thinking" is quite redundant. But I am going to assume you mean to ask whether or not I have ever studied religion based material, specifically creationism, and as such am able to weigh both viewpoints fairly enough to come to well developed opinion. As it so happens there was a point in my youth where I attended a presbyterian school for about two years.I learned about the bible every morning five days a week complete with prayers and everything. I would like to add, however, that my family's origin of religion is not christianity, these were just the best kind of schools available where we lived at the time. To answer your question though, yes there was a time in my life where I devoutly believed in creationism and god and original sin etc. When I moved to North America and attended high school, I studied other cultures, religions as well as sciences and math. I have friends with many faiths and beliefs who I converse regularly on topics of religion. All of these things contributed to my decision on being an atheist. Though it is my trust in sciences and mathematics which gives me most motivation to have faith in my atheism.

As for your second question I think that the bible could be called a "Christian scientific textbook" (though again I point out the redundancy of the use of the word "science"). I have also read many books on eastern and western philosophy and morals. Khalil Gibran and Paulo Coelho are some of my favorite authors, and they use a lot of christian symbolism in their writing. Christian authors can have beautiful writing, but they do not sway me into being a theist.

Well now that I've given you countless useless information about my personal life in an effort to convince you that atheists are not all angry people bent on holding an opinion for the sole purpose of going against the tide, I'd like to say that certain details of your explanation of evolution are flawed. I'd go into them, but I've done enough typing, plus Perry and John have already done a good job of that. And by the way I don't think I'm a step ahead of anyone, I just choose to understand something first before I put my faith in it. I hope I have answered your questions and that I don't have to post anything else on this blog.

I respect your idea, but FUCK YOU.

The world is full of mysteries, and "God" is definitely one of them. Too many unanswered questions, too many different ideas. Too many people, too many opinions. What matters is what you think and what you believe in. As long as you believe in what you think -your ideas-, that is faith. (wow. that was repetitive, but whatever.) Respect, for we are all made different. :D:D God confuses me. i'd rather not think about it xD

"I think the answer to God's existence is beyond test tube proof, as are other things in our experience, such a love. If you believe someone in your life loves you, you may be right. However, you can't prove scientifically that they do. Every argument you offer to prove they love you I can counter with an argument saying they really don't. What seems like love to you may be deceit, wanting to get on your good side, acting out of guilt or childhood needs, etc. I don't believe we can prove that love exists with science because I don't think love is made of natural materials. Yet most of us believe that love exists."

[b]yeah.. I never thought about that... so.. I can be an agnostic... but does anyone who is agnostic believe in something that never saw?

hmmm...so how can I know if you are real? haha... :)

JK

Vova,

Check out this book . It helped me sort out some of the topics you are talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/-Case-a-Creator-A/dp/0310241448/sr=8-2/qid=1156905403/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-6910214-6940744?ie=UTF8

Don't waste your time finding out what a JOURNALIST has to say about science and religion. Check out this book written by an actual scientist. "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins.

http://www.amazon.com/-God-Delusion/dp/0618680004/sr=1-1/qid=1156908796/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8079883-2502340?ie=UTF8&s=books

You are a noob! I can own your ass in a duel, so drop it! I don't even need to fight, I'll just let my level 60 pet Gorilla kick your ass, noob! Atheist!

an agnostic is a person who claims that _nobody_ is able to decide by reason or any other way if god exists or not (if a person does not care to resolve this question he is just an ignorant not an agnostic). some ancient chinese philosopher said that every reason based attempt to resolve this question inevitably ends in agnosticism. i personally doubt that a majority of scientists are pure atheists, i think they are agnostics. the question if there is a god or not is not to be proven by some other guys who told you so. you must decide for yourself, because in case that god existed, it would have impact on your life in the first place (also on everybody else, but you are responsible for yourself). you may find enjoyable and useful reading some brief history of philosophy and see what answers have been found for these questions and make your own answer.

Last time I checked, explosions killed things. And yet people say that is how the universe was created. Somehow, life came from that, and they can't explain it. At this point, you can't prove any side more than the other. That's what we call faith. The choice of what you believe is yours, but you should probably try to have less of a bias to one side. If you were right, than that's great for you and everything, but if it turned out I was right, that could work out badly for you.

By the way, my last name was supposed to be Chyorny. Isn't that Russian for black.

Life is not a bed of roses... Joshua

Life is not a bed of roses... Joshua

A black hen lays a white egg... Ralph

A black hen lays a white egg... Ralph

A black hen lays a white egg... Ralph

A black hen lays a white egg... Ralph

Poverty is not a shame, but the being ashamed of it is... Etheldreda

Poverty is not a shame, but the being ashamed of it is... Etheldreda

A good beginning makes a good ending... Ingram

A good beginning makes a good ending... Ingram

A good beginning makes a good ending... Ingram

A good beginning makes a good ending... Ingram

Drunken days have all their tomorrow... Phillipa

Drunken days have all their tomorrow... Phillipa

Open not your door when the devil knocks... Rawsone

Open not your door when the devil knocks... Rawsone

Open not your door when the devil knocks... Rawsone