Do you appreciate corrections of your English? I could do that.
"Synonymous, Russianess, verbal conversation, no one." I can't juggle 2 Kleenexes, BTW.

Hey, w00t was originally found in RPG's (role playing games) as a short for "wow, loot." Now, it is mainly used in the computer science/gaming world just as a random exclamation and in trying to sound cool but only making themselves sound more geeky (^_^)

Hey Vova. I didn't realize we were arguing.

I assume you're talking about me, as I was the one that posted the video that got everything rolling. I don't remember writing back about not arguing though. Or the analogy. Ah well. w00t!

I look forward to what your new site offers.

English corrected. Thanks.

Master3bs, I wasn't referring to your video post. I was talking about a different guy. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

expressing yourself while juggling...
my expression would be frustration...

Vova,

Since no one else seems to be taking the bait, I will play the devil's advocate. I don't follow the You-tube debates, (I prefer to read, it's faster), so forgive me if I cover old ground.

If I understand your position correctly Vova, you say that juggling does not expresses anything anymore than how you open the door expresses something about you. Juggling in your view is just a series of actions that you happen to be able to perform better than almost anyone else. But you are no more expressing yourself by juggling then you would be expressing yourself by opening the door or taking out the garbage or what ever. Is that a fair representation of your views?

But I wonder what you consider the limits of expressing yourself to be? Surly you would agree that writing would be a form of expressing yourself. I think you would also agree that painting would be a form of expressing yourself. What about music, Vova? Do you think a person can use music to express oneself?

I think that music provides a good analogy to juggling. For if you reduce music to its basics, you see that it is simply sound in patterns. When a composer writes out a piece of music, he is writing out a pattern for a musician to follow. Do you think, then, that a musician who plays that music is not expressing himself?

I am sure you are educated broadly enough that you realize that even when they stick with the pattern as it is written, a good musician can interpret piece of music in a variety of ways. You can hear two different musicians play the same peace of music; you can recognize that they are both playing the same piece of music. Yet their will be subtle differences that lets you know that each musician see the piece in different ways even though they are playing the same pattern. That does not mean that one is right and the other is wrong. It is just their character being expressed in how they see the music.

I think what makes the various interpretations of the same pattern expression is that the musicians have a choice. A good musician can choose how to interpret a piece of music. By their choice they reveal who they are.

I think the same thing can be said of technical juggling. You can do a pattern a variety of ways. The way you chose to do it expresses who you are. Even if you and another juggler had the exact same skill, you would still both chose to do a pattern differently. What would be pleasing to you would not please someone else in exactly the same way. Even if you blocked out the faces, the difference between how you throw a pattern and how Thomas Dietz throws a pattern would give you a clue to the differences in your personality that goes beyond what ever differences in skill their might be between you. Therefore, the way you juggle is an expression of yourself.

Vova,

I tend to agree with your general sentiment, but if you enjoy arguing, I'll gladly take the other side for intellectual stimulation.

If you will accept that "expressing yourself" can include conveying character and attitude rather than simply coherent thought, you can make a good case for being able to express yourself through just about anything, including checking e-mail and washing dishes. Indeed, if you watch closely you can see a lot about a person by watching them perform these tasks. . . particularly washing dishes. :)

Whether you realize it or not, your personality and character effect everything you do. When my brother washes dishes, he stands rigidly, moving his hands hurriedly. It is apparent just from watching the way he approaches the chore that he finds it unpleasant, and is willing to work hard with both his mind and his body to get the job done as quickly as possible. That tells you something about him, if your interested enough to look for the signs.

This same principle holds true for juggling. Try watching yours, Thomas's, and Wes's club routines at last years WJF. I don't know any of you, but your personality comes across strongly on your practice videos.

You move with quick, precise movements. Discipline is etched into your juggling. When an error in your pattern does force you to move, the step still looks like a deliberate decision to move yourself to a more advantageous position. Although you don't look tense, you don't look relaxed either. Everything looks strictly controlled--even the juggling you do in the Fatboy slim video. Even though I don't know you personally, I would bet based on your juggling that you live on a schedule out of choice, and rarely act on whims.

Thomas, on the other hand, exaggerates every movement he makes while he's juggling, as though he were doing something wild and exciting. Thomas's juggling bubbles with energy. He doesn't seem to mind taking risks. How is this not Thomas's personality coming through?

Wes looks extremely relaxed when he juggles. Everything he does seems to be done slowly and deliberately. He rarely seems rushed, and drops and mistakes seem to neither surprise or annoy him. The slow way he likes to spin his clubs seems to match his easygoing personality.

You may claim that a persons movements are distinct from their juggling, but if I asked you, could you pinpoint the distinction? Juggling requires movement. Even if you claim that the arms are the only part of your body involved with juggling, you will still see a great difference between jugglers. The difference is their "style", and style is the expression of personality.

The Chieftain of Seir, Lachlan,
thanks for accepting my challenge.
As you both have stated, if one tried hard enough, he/she could find self-expression in any action, that can be done with variation. However, I think there needs to be a line drawn at which there's so little information getting across to viewers, that one doesn't call it self-expression anymore. To be honest, the way I close doors, wash dishes or check email probably would tell you much more about me than my juggling.
I can't speak for Thomas and Wes, but your impression of what my personality is like from my juggling is far from reality. I do take risks - I'm quite a reckless driver, I hear. I wish I could live on a schedule.
My juggling is simply my interpretation of how I think juggling look best. I would also venture to say that most jugglers' juggling is their interpretation of how juggling would look best. Of course one could argue that interpretation tells you something about the interpretor, but when it comes to juggling there's so little information getting across, that I wouldn't call it "expressing yourself". I would go so far as to say musicians playing a piece are not expressing themselves, but merely interpreting how they think the piece should be played.
The bottomline is that I think the term "expressing yourself" is now used regarding many things solely to make them sound more meaningful. When the term is used about so many things, the term loses it's value and becomes absurd. For example statement like, "good juggler is one that expresses himself through juggling", which is the statement I was originally responding to, makes absolutely no sense to me.

Vova,

I could not defend the statement "a good juggler is one that expresses himself through juggling" even as a devil's advocate.
Well, maybe I could, but I would have to redefine the terms to such an extent that the debate would be ridicules. It would cease to have any kind of intellectual stimulation for me.

That is part of the problem with these kinds of debates. Who gets to define the terms?

Speaking of defining, I don't think you understood how I choose to define self expression in my argument. I did not say that you could find self expression in any action. That was Lachlan. You may have interpreted my attempt at summarizing your position as saying that, but I was trying to express your thoughts (i.e that there is no difference between opening a door and juggling as far as self expression goes.)

What I was trying to bring out is that the key element of self expression is conscious choice. I don't consciously choose how I open a door or wash dishes. But a good musician can consciously choose how to play a piece of music. I imagine that top level jugglers consciously chose to work towards juggling styles that please them. The fact that they make a choice to me constitutes self expression in its most literal form.

I understand why you dislike the overuse of the term "expressing yourself." But I think the problem with this is not that people think that they are expressing themselves by doing various things, but that they think that expressing themselves is always a wonderful thing. Shakespeare's body of work is the result of a man expressing himself. A temper tantrum is the result of somebody expressing themselves. They do not both have the same meaning.

Here are my thoughts.

We all consciously choose how we open doors, wash dishes, etc. There's conscious choice to almost everything human beings do. So, if you define self expression as actions that involve conscious choice, opening doors, washing dishes, etc. are just as much self expression as playing a piece of music or juggling.

I agree with that. I agree that the way people perform tasks like opening doors tell you about as much about the person performing the tasks as does juggling or playing a piece of music. The way a person plays a piece of music tells you is how the person thinks it would probably sound best. Similarly, with juggling, the way a juggler juggles tells you how they think juggling would look best. Both express very tiny bits of personality. To me, those bits of personality are too tiny to call it self expression.

Personally I am not sure I understand what "self expression" really is. I think it is very abstract idea that can't be defined except on an individual basis. What it really comes down to is if the person expressing themselves feels they are. For example some musicians simply play the notes on the page. But other musicians put their heart and soul into a song. The later musicians would be expressing themselves because they beleive themselves to be, but just because they are doesn't mean we can nessicarily understand their expression.

Juggling may not be the best way to express your character, but that does not mean that there is no use for juggling as expression. You say yourself that you can express an idea of perfect juggling with juggling. If this is not the best way to do so, what is? Written words? Aren't the technical demonstrations all about a juggler attempting to express perfect juggling? Isn't your goal to get better at expressing your idea of perfect juggling through demonstration?

In the posts you made on the WJF forum, you and Jason say that you consider perfect juggling to be technical, and you both attempt demonstrate this in your juggling. Masaki-Hirano expresses an altogether different idea in his juggling. Those who say that "the best juggler is the one who expresses his idea of perfect juggling the best" are putting all of you on even footing.

Is the best writer the one who best expresses his ideas, or the one who expresses the most complex ideas?

Lachlan, I believe there's been a misunderstanding. I do agree with what you said. Expressing your views on how juggling should be done through juggling is possible, and is very common. I do agree that you can express your idea of what juggling should look like through juggling. Similarly, you can express your idea of how any other task (including opening doors) should be performed through performing that task. I agree with that.

What I don't agree is the "self" part of "self-expression through juggling". Sure you can express your views on what juggling should look like through juggling. However, I feel like that's too insignificant a part of one's self to call it self expression. Just like, in my opinion, performing the task of opening doors provides too little insight into one's self to call it self expression.

Have you considered your juggling as an art form?
Was the music video supposed to mean anything?
If it is just technique, all you need is a contrasty background, no mansion, no humor, no clothes, no smiles, no music. Making all those choices is the self- expression part--as is the choice of routine. You can't not express yourself!

Dan: wouldn't that mean that he is expressing himself through a video? instead of through juggling... I mean can you tell if someone is happy or unhappy by watching them juggle?

I can see Vova's point though, I mean you can express yourself through painting perhaps or composing a song, but through juggling I'm not sure but I can't see how that would work...

Some arguments come down to where each participant draws the line. In this case it seems the line is "what constitutes self expression?" or "what is the threshold of detecting self expression."
It would seem that Vova would agree that some form of expression exists in every action, e.g. opening a door, but to call it self expression would be silly. More explicitly the phrase, "a good door opener is one who expresses himself through opening doors" would make very little sense. But he concludes that so very little is expressed through such actions that it would not be considered "self expression." Others think the threshold has been met.
Self expression might be regarded as communicating one's feelings through actions. I've heard the argument that holding hands is not a form of communicating because no words are transferred. This is a very naive view of communication. Communication is just transferring information. Transferring information about one's feelings is self expression at its perhaps most basic, technical form. In that case if slamming a door conveys my feelings, it would be technically self expression. But the danger comes in using the term so losely that the original meaning, the grand view of self expression, gets lost.
If my passion is opening and closing doors, and I write about how I do it, film it in slow motion and tears come to my eyes through such actions, then I would claim that I am expressing myself though them. Many of the great artists of the world are only so because they wrote about themselves and their expression.
Perhaps a question to raise is whether or not the actual brush strokes of a painting constitute self expression. Surely most would consider a painting to be self expression, but mostly the final product, not the technique of applying oil based paints on a canvas with a brush. Similarly juggling is the technical act of throwing objects into the air at scheduled intervals. The final product is hard to define since it exists only in the single dimension of time, which we must view sequentially. Whereas a final painting exists in the three dimensions of space, which we have a much easier time viewing all at once.
I would say that watching a master painter paint would transmit different expressions than the final painting. Not that the painter did not express himself through the painting, only that the expression through the act of painting was to a much lesser degree than that of the final painting. So much less that it may have crossed many people's lines of what constitutes self expression. Juggling on the other hand doesn't really have a "final product" since, as stated before, humans cannot see one dimensional objects as well. In that case, the only thing we judge is the technical act of juggling, which is below Vova's threshold of pure self expression. Then again a musical piece is one dimensional and considered self expression by many, so go figure.
In the end, I tend to think that there is much less self expression in the world than people give credit for.

I guess my main idea is that the line of what constitutes self expression has been blurred by many, and thus everyone has a different cut-off threshold. All I know is that I for one do not consider my juggling to be self expression.

About the w00t thing. I've heard some brothers saying it out loud. Usually two in succesion whilst raising their hands:
"W00t w00t!"

I agree 100% with Jeff's statement that it all comes down to "what is the threshold of detecting self expression".
That's interesting that you've heard people say "w00t". I have an idea. People who read this blog should greet me with "w00t". That way I'll eventually hear it in a verbal conversation.

Good comments, Jeff.

Vova, as I live in rural upstate New York you will likely never meet me in person, but I do say "W00t."

I consider w00t an expression of mindless excitement. As such I rarely use it in conversation with other people because I consider it somewhat deprecatory.

Usage is usually on those who will not be offended . . . either self-mockery or other unoffendable parties. For example, I keep chickens and when I go out to the chicken yard to feed them they all come rushing to greet me with much ridiculous excitement. To which I greet them with "W00t! W00t!"

hi! great videos by the way. they make me want to throw down my clubs and give up because i'll never be that good!

here's some more views for you to handle:

on self expression~
being a musician for as long as you have been juggling i think i can add something for this topic. when you are playing some one elses music you are correct, you simply play it the way you think it will sound best. you are really suposed to stick to what the composer wrote and in general not add anything of your own. to express yourself in music you have to make your own music. i think that you can express yourself through anything you do (juggling or music), but it has to be completly of your own making.

on wooting~
i have a friend who woots all the time and it is really the most annoying thing on the planet. not becuase it is really that gross to hear, but because it gets stuck in your head and you find yourself to start saying it.

Why are so many people so obsessed with the idea of "self expression" through art or whatever activity? In our society, it seems, everyone wants to be an individual. Not only do they want to be an individual, they want their individuality recognized. Strange, to see it so often, here, in the USA, a society which prides itself on protected individual rights and freedoms, like freedom of expression. I guess this obsession with individuality is why so many people seem to want to "express themSELVES" through their art or whatever their *thing* is. Why can't the art speak for itself? Doesn't it? Vova, are you okay with this? Are you okay with not taking all of the credit for your great ability? Do you think maybe humanity or your family (genes), or the sport itself or God could be expressing themselves through you and your performance? Maybe you are the one getting used here, and not the clubs you are juggling. ;) I appreciate your discomfort with the abuse of this whole *self expression* concept. I am a potter, who was an art major in school with a focus on ceramics and pottery as my medium. I am familiar with this problem. It is a question that is actually a member of a larger family of questions like: what is art?, what is craft?, talent vs. creativity, form vs. function...

In fact, maybe its about creativity. What is creativity? Is creativity a form of self expression? If it IS, then is that fact even worth mentioning?

Vova, do you feel that you are creative in your juggling? If you plan a routine and perform it, are you being creative?

I just have to add one more thing. As I said, I was an Art student in school, specializing in ceramics. My ceramics professor was a very abrasive and cranky old man. He could be very mean to some of his students and generally to anyone around him. However, when he would demonstrate pottery on the wheel for his class, he would become like a totally different person. It is like his whole spirit would transform into something else right before your very eyes. He would change in the way he would talk or the expression on his face or his movements and sometimes even the types of opinions he might share on a given topic. But then any other time he was a real cranky nasty man. So how does his art even convey his inner self at all. I'd be willing to stretch to say that art in fact, may not be a form of self expression. Maybe art is an expression of a spirit that does NOT belong to the artist. I don't know if this is consistent with other things like juggling, but I suspect it could be. My brother who is talented in music once had a told me that he sees art and creativity as an almost athletic thing. Just thought I'd add this example.

A little comment to add. I heard Tony Hawk say on NPR that he considers his skating to be his way of expression. Just thought it was interesting.

Cleanliness is next to godliness... Faustinus